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Hungarian-English Translation ofmale vs female DE
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Ok, so this question is pestering me for weeks now, but I succesfully avoided the subjects to be transfered to not hit a majority of entries with this problem. It is about the genders in proffessions, etnology or any other male/female designation. 2 examples: német - Deutscher - German német [nő] - Deutsche - German [female] ----------------------- fordító - Übersetzer - translator fordító [nő] - Übersetzerin - translator [female] So I guess by now you figured out what I mean. In the majority of the inputs we have to assign disamb. to both sides of the columns to stress out we are refering to the female noun, because both languages are "male by default". The only exception (see special HU-guideline) are the nouns with the "nő" directly attached. In every other example but those we have pretty much a 1:1 duplicate with only the brackets difference. So here is what I think about it. First of all...you all know me by now and my claim on quality. For that reason I dont wanna create a situation where anyone comes along and gives me a sentence like: "the pair only got 30K because you built categorically plurals and similar male/female entries". This is getting practised as we speak in other pairs and I dont like it. I dont want EN/HU have this reputation. I want 30K translations being worth 30K and not a inflection menu copied/pasted for another 10K freebees which dont belong there. Quite on the opposite we must not forget about the educational factors. How does a foreigner know, if the "nő" is directly attached or not. Adding both version "nő - female" even tho its almost a duplicate would exclude this option and offer a linguistic value. This is the only reason I can think off (despite us having less work getting beyond 30K xD) Soooo, for that reason I´d like to consult our beloved Admin áká Muhamed, all users and ofc Paul as dominant authority. What do you think about it? How should we handle it? Is more, less? Or simply more more. Is the linguistic value shown enough to justify it? regards PS: fast written text, dont bite my typos...they bite back. PS2: I didnt quite convince myself of a opinion either, so I´d like to hear what other ppl think first. I simply think presenting is the first step, everything else would be impartial on my behalf. | ||
Answer: | #635980 | |
+1 vote for using "német [nő] - German [female]", this way one can be sure that both languages use the same forms for both genders. Otherwise one can just guess. Even if it looks a bit lame... like you could go on with német [juhász] - German [shepherd], német [nyelv] - German [language] etc. but I'm just kidding, it's not that hard to understand for someone that knows dict.cc a little bit. These forms come from German through the "Buildup" function, but as I said they carry valuable info about how a certain language uses genders. | ||
Answer: | #636062 | |
Let me clarify the question first. This doesn't affect German-Hungarian, because female German forms have different endings. So the question is: Should English-Hungarian have one or two entries for the nouns mentioned? Version A: Both - fordító - translator - fordító [nő] - translator [female] Version B: Only - fordító - translator As szelanyo said, there is some additional information if we go with version A, and that's "the female form is written just like the male one". So the second entry is not completely unnecessary. I'm not sure what's better ... | ||
Answer: | Yes. 100% right Paul. | #636072 |
but dont forget there are words where the [nő] is directly attached to the word. So the value ist about exactly this knowledge. If we enter both version, you as Hu learning would be able to "check" whether you can use "nő" as a ending or not. This is the only fact of value to it and it´s about to decide if it´s worth it or not. As Szelanyo already said, it´s good to have this information for learners and I think Ill go with him there, even tho I´m totally annoyed by the dupl-warnings while doing inputs :) | ||
Answer: | That's fine! | #636155 |
I think they won't hurt and they don't make up a great percentage of the vocabulary, so the 30K will still be worth 30. Or at least 29.99! ;-) | ||
Answer: | Male vs. female | #636415 |
by szocskaroly (HU), 2012-01-11, 16:54 Spam? ... I would be in favour of making a difference only in case it really makes a difference in any of the languages. Hungarian example: tanár - teacher, tanárnő - teacher [female]. Both Hungarian words exist and are deliberately used in order to distinguish the gender. Therefore both shoud be individually shown in any Hungarian dictionary. There are on the other hand professions or roles where it is not common or not relevant to show the gender of the person. For example kőműves - mason. We do not use kőművesnő, most probably because it is not usual to find ladies in that profession (except the darkest era of communism in the 1950s). Or we do not say tanúnő for a witness, because it is primariliy not relevant if it is he or she. For more (authentic) comments to this see also: http://webfu.univie.ac.at/texte/3Balogh.pdf Therefore again my proposal is to show different cases only if they really exist and are in use in any of the language pairs. If both languages are happy with just one word for both genders, than it is one pair of words for me. I hope I understood correctly the problem which is under discussion. Regards Károly | ||
Answer: | Agree with Paul's proposal | #636477 |
It still won't hurt if, despite English and Hungarian (even more so) being languages which generally do not use grammatical gender, we point this peculiarity out with the "additional information" - and definitely to distinguish those entries from words where nő is elementary part of the word (e.g. tanárnő). | ||
Answer: | tanár/tanárnő | #636683 |
Tanár/tanárnő: While tanárnő can only be female, tanár can mean both in some cases, where the gender is not so important. Like "Erika nagyon jó ének tanár." Or "-Mivel foglalkozik, Erika? -Tanár vagyok". In German only male teachers say "Ich bin ein Lehrer." In Hungarian "tanár" means 75% of the time a male teacher, 25% female. Tanár úr is 100% male though, and tanárnő 100% female. | ||
Answer: | #637311 | |
As Muhi said, that the English and the Hungarian language haven't any form of grammatical gender, I would say, we make the inputs in that way like Version B from Paul. And those words like "tanárnő" can be translated in the correct form like "teacher [female]" (in this example). What think the other contributors about? ÜDV majaya | ||
Answer: | #637316 | |
but version B is against posting it. Version A = posting all jobs, proffesions, etc in male and female version. [nö] + [female], UNLESS the "nö" can be attached directly to the Hungarian word Version B = posting ONLY male versions, leaving out the "nö" + "female" tags UNLESS the nö can be attached to the Hungarian word. So I just summerize fast the advantages / disadvantages. Version A: - more entries, clarification about the attachment of "nö" for the user, because you can see for all the proffesions if there is the "nö" attached or not. Another good point for this version is the consensus with the Hungarian GL 17 in DE/HU Version B: - less entries, ONLY clarification if the "nö" is directly attached to the word. For all those words, where you cant attach it , the user has to "guess" about the female version (if there is one, and if so how you put it) Judging by his comment I think Muhi agreed with version A, so did Szelanyo and myself. Which means we have 3 for A and 1 for B (unless Maja mixed the versions up). From a input-POV the version A is pretty inconvenient, because of the duplicate warnings and it also means for the voter additional attention to avoid actual duplicates. For the user of dict.cc the version A will provide decent information about grammar and spelling of the male/female words. So ye, version A it should be. | ||
Answer: | Just to clarify... | #637328 |
...that I also agreed with version A, and judging by the majority opinion it seems that version A is the more advantageous of the two. Is there a need to specify this in the guidelines in some way? | ||
Answer: | #637332 | |
I dont think its necessary for this specific issue, because GL 17 covers it. """""" Hungarian nouns that can be both masculine and feminine are generally added to the dictionary in the masculine form, without adding "[férfi]" or "férfi" (except "férfi" is part of the word itself). Female Hungarian nouns are tagged with "[nö]", except "nö" is already part of the word itself (as in "barátnő"). """""" What we discussed is more about how to do inputs. | ||
Answer: | #637573 | |
Regardless of this contribute, ppl already started deleting the [nő] entries. So I guess there is no point in talking further and just take male versions. | ||
Answer: | I vote for version B. | #637592 |
by Kiskunfelegyhaza (US), Last modified: 2012-01-18, 16:37 Spam? ... All along on the various dictionaries of dict.cc we've only had entries for truly DIFFERENT words. To me it seems a waste of energy and potentially confusing to have two entries for "atheist" one male and one female. Users will find themselves staring at the duplicate [female] entries and wondering what is different about them. There is the additional phenomenon of differentiating women from men when there is absolutely no need - a negative gender statement, as though in regard to exercising professions, religion, or what have you, men and women were fundamentally different. This is the basis for gender discrimination. This I definitely take issue with. | ||
Answer: | Version B | #637822 |
Just to let everyone know, the final decision has been made, regardless of this discussion. From now on, please ignore all female entries while doing inputs, UNLESS the "nö" is directly attached. Please dont put in a female - nö version of genderless words. Ill reopen and delete the the existing entries. So please dont wonder about that. Ill link to this forumthread in the comments, so everybody gets the idea why we are doing this. I guess a guidelines will be written for this, or maybe not. We are a small team, so everybody should know it by now anyway. | ||
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